Curse

the_jos · Feb 21, 2009, 01:16 PM // 13:16

This question has been bothering me for a couple of months now.
I'm still having fun playing PvE with my guildies, same with the occassional AB teaming. RA is fun to test some new builds, but a little too random

However, while having fun, I'm also realising that I'm not really improving myself anymore. A lot of play is on autopilot nowadays.

So I decided to just fire some questions on the PvP community (this is Glad's Arena) to see if the switch to PVP would be worth it for me.
I'm mainly thinking about GvG with maybe some HA. AB is a matter of passing time for me, TA doesn't appeal.

First of all and a huge dilemma for me is that I've been with my current PvE guild for over two years now. I think that if I want to be serious about PvP I should switch to a guild that's dedicated to PvP, leaving my current guild behind.
So I'd like to know if there are posibilities to 'test' GvG for a small period of time to see if I enjoy it enough to make the switch.

Next question in my mind is the kind of guild I'm looking for.
I have fixed playing times so I would be looking for an organised guild.
However, joining a larger guild/alliance might allow me to play with more people.
What do you recommend for starting PvP players like me, play with a smaller fixed team or team up with as many as possible in a large guild/alliance?

Next is more about me. I've played PvE for fair amount of time and no doubt I've developed some bad habbits there. What are the most important to be aware of and what are ways to start working to minimise them?

When I switch I'd like to set some realistic goals for let's say 3 and 6 months. Things that I can use to see if I improved as much as I wanted or that I need to work harder. Are there such goals available? Or is it more a generic 'feeling' that you got better?

If I get into PvP and get somewhat better would there be more experienced players outside my group willing to teach me things.
For example something I chatted about ages ago: how to determine which skill to burn when you get diversion on you as monk and one of your team-members needs some help fast. Or just wait the 3 seconds... But that's something of later concern, just wondering if more experienced players are willing to talk/chat with me on such things.

Some info about me that could make it easier to answer some questions.
I've had a leading position in my guild for over 2 years, as officer and leader.
Since May 2007 the guild has focus on HM PvE. We don't want tank&spank kind of players. We support players to find out what works for them and how to benefit the team with that. Learn why things work, don't just play builds.
My guild and alliance don't play PvP and they won't switch with me.

In the past (before May 2007) I've played some GvG on entry level with my guild, I'm familiar with some of the basic concepts of GvG. My roles have always been back- and midline, I tend to lose field awareness when playing frontline, so I don't play it that often (could that be a goal to work on?).
No PvP titles yet and to be honest I don't really care about them.
I want to become a better player and if that somehow results in a title that's fine. If not, as long as I get better I'm ok.

If you know some other things I should consider I'd appreciate to hear those.
Questions are also welcome.

Wish Swiftdeath · Feb 21, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

basically you need to firstly get in a guild and start playing games (GvG, Ha, heck - even TA)

then you need to have good social skills and become friendly with people so that they may help you or take you into your groups.

although that's just the very basic idea

Alot of the questions you are asking all come from experience, e.g. you burn the wrong skill and get screwed over - you don't do it again

Sometimes it's just common sense but alot of the time you just need to practice (and learn from your mistakes)

Ex Death · Feb 21, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

First of all and a huge dilemma for me is that I've been with my current PvE guild for over two years now. I think that if I want to be serious about PvP I should switch to a guild that's dedicated to PvP, leaving my current guild behind.
So I'd like to know if there are posibilities to 'test' GvG for a small period of time to see if I enjoy it enough to make the switch.

This is and always has been the absolute number one reason why PvEers stick to pve. They feel tied to their loyal PvE guild as if there's some sort of social obligation to remain where they are with their friends. I just hope that in GW2 guilds will feel less like 'societies' and more like 'teams' so that the GvG playerbase doesn't decline as much as it has in GW1.

To answer your question, you're in exactly the same position as almost all PvEers who think they MIGHT enjoy organised PvP and wouldn't mind trying it out, but don't want to leave thier guild in order to do so. If you think you might enjoy it, you most probably will enjoy it.

If your pve guild doesn't understand your intentions for leaving them and is pissed with you then you should be glad you made the right decision because they're obviously retarded.

Jeydra · Feb 22, 2009, 12:27 PM // 12:27

There's nothing wrong with RA, it can make you good. I know some people who'll argue that Gladiator ranks are the most meaningful of PvP titles, because the most important factor in the Arenas is skill (GvG = communication, HA = teambuilds). Me, I spent over two years playing RA before I got involved in more serious PvP, although I'll confess that over that two years I didn't improve much (mainly because I didn't know how to improve - don't be like me, you can learn what to do to get to the next level from various forums).

Test GvG for a small amount of time? You can always get a guest invite, although if you're just starting out chances are nobody will invite you. Try asking your PvE guild, and alliance if they have one. Get someone to call tactics and try to play a serious build, or just play byob and see what it's like. Large guild or small guild, I'd say small if you can find one.

If you are critical of yourself and if you know what to look for, you'll recognize bad habits and start working to fix them. I for example have the unfortunate habit of switching to my cast set when I'm below 60 HP and suffering from degen, that leads to instant death - but I do it anyway because it's gotten so ingrained within me to switch to 40/40s every time I cast. I know also I should count the cooldown on Melandru's Shot, but I've never gotten to doing it (well maybe I do it 10% of the time now, lol). If you know what to look for you also know if you're getting better. Of course an obvious signpost is that you'll also win more if you're better.

For questions like 'which spell to I lose to Diversion to save my ally?' I suggest you form your own opinions before you compare with what others think. The obvious answer is whichever spell is least important, and which spell is least important you can find out from repeatedly playing the build.

Have fun

Master Ketsu · Feb 22, 2009, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Random arena = Lulz. Occasionally you will need some skill, occasionally you wont, and occasionally you will run into life bond wammo's. Farm Zkeys here.

Team arena = Used to require the most individual skill out of all organized forms of PvP. The stale meta has somewhat ruined this and it really just comes down to who can hold out via OP crapstack chains the longest. Dead most of the time.

GvG = Fun, and requires skill. To me it always feels sort of like a mixture of the old TA meta back when it was good, and HA teambuilding. Occasionally gets screwed over by retarded functionality changes ( lol VIM )

Hero Battle = Takes the most individual skill, but is not fun at all.

Alliance battle = PvEvP. Even less skill required then RA.

Heroes Ascent = Used to be good, horrible stale metas coupled with overbearing rank elitism to the point where new players get discouraged and just go back to PvE has led to a slow and painful death. If your going to HA, join an HA guild. Do. Not. Pug. Mostly requires Team skill and organization in the current Meta, individual skill is required in some builds but for the most part you can get away with being a scrub and still easily get fame.

FA/JQ = Basically luck of getting a semi competent team. Players here are mostly PvE scrubs who are horribad at the game and have superior runes with no vigor. I personally only play this when I want to let off some steam by running around with a spike build and instagibbing bad players ( Because they are oh so squishy and easy to kill )

Fril Estelin · Feb 22, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Did you think of KiSu the_jos? They mentor people, although they're quite full. Their forum:
http://teamlove.us/kisu/

I've also seen people mentioning forming a new GvG group, but it's the long path (lots of failure to learn)

GL!

Master Ketsu · Feb 22, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

KiSu = RA syncers.

Herp Herp Derp

fowlero · Feb 23, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Your fixed playing times will be ideal for many gvg guilds at any level because many play at "core" times so everyone logs on then (ideally) setup and play gvg, so just look for one with your timings.

Elsewhere you say you're interested in midline/backline but as a beginner i'd say find what you enjoy most and specialise in one specific area. That way you'll be able to learn the generic idea's of pvp as well as something further in whatever profession (more position) you go for. Can do this easily ehough in AB or RA.

Also it'll be a lot easier if you're euro as it's a lot more active still over here than in america.

The Fallen One · Feb 25, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

You might want to consider the general degenerated state of the high-level PvP communities at this point in time before you plunge head-first into GvG/HA etc. Consider that a lot of players, myself included, have left out of sheer frustration and boredom with the current situation. Am I saying that you personally will share these emotions? No. I'm simply warning that many skilled players have moved on, and it might end your GW career to get too carried away in the already dying PvP. That's not some sort of BS whining, it's advice, so stop that flaming you're already thinking about.

If you find your drawn to the back line, there is a VERY prominent and important habit you have to break. You MUST NOT monk by looking at the party bar alone. This will get you killed faster than you can think about the word "dead". You have to WATCH, with your viewing screen (gasp), where the enemy frontline is headed, and cast appropriately.
Also, on a side note, start to learn warrior's tendencies with Bull's Strike. Nine out of ten times they'll use it predictably, in which case you can simply stop moving, and it will have little or no effect.

the_jos · Feb 25, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'll share some of my thoughts on things.

The reason I still play with my current guild is because I'm the founder and leader. This guild was the result of a split in my old guild where I put the old founder outside it (I was leader). I always felt more like a custodian for that guild than a leader and could not kick him.
After that split we had some rough times with a part of the guild not willing to go back to our old alliance. So that caused another split. In the end most players got back with my guild and it made us stronger as a group.
But all this caused a strong attachment to the guild.
I can somewhat work around that (I have a second account I can promote) but am not sure if that's wise to do.

I do play RA from time to time, mostly as one of the roles I would prefer in organised play which is some type of disrupter/disabler (Me/E or interrupt ranger). What I don't like about RA is that it's very random and I feel I'm only working on my own personal skill and not so much my role in the team.
AB offers a different problem. Here I play either disrupter/disabler or monk, the roles I like. But the gameplay is mainly about nuking npc's and moving around maps fast avoiding as much contact with human opponents as possible (depending on team build though).

When playing monk in PvE and AB I've already started to stop watching at red bars and look more and more for placement of team and opponents on the field.
In AB I can handle this well at the moment, for hex removal I'm still depending on the bars though. Conditions are more obvious from their animation.
At a certain time I started monking players outside my team so I don't have the red bar at all and that works up to a certain point.
But I've also seen on observer that I lose this overview when 16 players are on the field close to each other.
Same on AB when 8v8 happens, guess I lack experience there.

I know about several Warrior builds, I try to trigger a Bull's by a dead stop when I suspect one from a W chasing me. And am trying to keep track of warriors with hammers to see if they gained enough adrenaline to KD.
Depending on build this would mean shadow stepping out when he's close or stance when he's almost in hitting range. Same with Assassins.
If a W/E moves in I know I can expect a Shock, so keep my stance ready for the moment that happens.

PvP might be dying, but at my level of play this isn't much of a problem yet I think. I've still got a lot to learn, won't be playing high-end for ages so even less experienced opponents will be a challenge at first.

Good social skills? Think I have them. I became GL in my old guild because of them. People know I won't overestimate my skill and abilities (more probably underestimate), don't escalate arguments, am able to stop arguments.
Can handle stressful situations (arguments in the alliance resulting in kicks and the like). I feel my strenght is being an asset to a team, not being the best individual player around.
I can lead PvE groups (and a guild as part of a large alliance) but also fit in a following role.

I did consider KiSu but am not sure they are the right fit for me.
I rather play with a relatively fixed group twice a week than 7 days a week with mostly random people.

And no, I didn't make my mind up yet.
I've already chatted about it with several of my officers and more chats will follow the next couple of days.

Xanthar · Feb 25, 2009, 02:06 PM // 14:06

It seems to me that other replies to this thread offer advice on the technical skills of how to play the game, whereas the_jos has a problem centered on the social aspects of guild switching.

I was once in shoes of a similar size as yours, so I am entirely sympathetic. In the end you must consider this: Will you continue to play GW if you continue with a mainly PvE play style? If you won't, then the answer is clear: It won't matter if you leave your guild due to PvP or to boredom, it's bound to happen anyway.

I would advice against trying to be both a committed member of a PvP guild on one hand and a guild leader of a PvE guild on the other. Getting to grips with team play will suck up pretty much all of your play time, and so your guild leadership will, in all likelihood, be lackluster if not outright bad. This might actually be worse than going cold turkey.

There is a middle way though: Set up your own PvP guild. As you might imagine, this will be a difficult task, but it will allow you to keep in contact with your old guild through alliance chat etc. Your old PvE guild would of course constitute your initial recruiting grounds as well. Only a viable option if you have nerves of steel and an large pool of patience to draw from.

Finding a guild in your time zone that are of the right skill level, have decent people and play at the right times won't be all that easy either. If you have some flexibility in your play times, you'll probably meet with more success.

Enough ramblings - Your options:
1. Continue PvE and confine yourself RA and AB
2. Start a PvP guild and ally it with your PvE guild, be prepared for failure
3. Join an existing PvP team and cut official ties with your PvE guild

the_jos · Feb 25, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

It seems to me that other replies to this thread offer advice on the technical skills of how to play the game, whereas the_jos has a problem centered on the social aspects of guild switching.

I was once in shoes of a similar size as yours, so I am entirely sympathetic. In the end you must consider this: Will you continue to play GW if you continue with a mainly PvE play style? If you won't, then the answer is clear: It won't matter if you leave your guild due to PvP or to boredom, it's bound to happen anyway.

You are right, it's mainly because of the social part.
I would probably continue playing PvE for a while if I don't switch.
I'm still having fun with my guildies. And have fun playing with PUGs on my second account.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

I would advice against trying to be both a committed member of a PvP guild on one hand and a guild leader of a PvE guild on the other. Getting to grips with team play will suck up pretty much all of your play time, and so your guild leadership will, in all likelihood, be lackluster if not outright bad. This might actually be worse than going cold turkey.

Well, I've already considered this.
I did already put myself back more and more the last months in the guild and officers have been taking over most of my main tasks already.
It's not a daily task anymore, I mostly socialize and play a little with my guildies.
However, two of them can't lead atm because one of them is pregnant and her husband is the other officer.
And I'm considering appointing some other officer but not sure he's up to it yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xanthar

There is a middle way though: Set up your own PvP guild. As you might imagine, this will be a difficult task, but it will allow you to keep in contact with your old guild through alliance chat etc. Your old PvE guild would of course constitute your initial recruiting grounds as well. Only a viable option if you have nerves of steel and an large pool of patience to draw from.

I won't do this.
I've been leading two guilds at the same time for a while and can't handle that

Byron · Feb 25, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

No.

[][][][][]

Still Number One · Feb 25, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

No.

[][][][][]

pretty much sums it up.

The Fallen One · Feb 26, 2009, 05:55 AM // 05:55

I quite understand that Jos was more concerned about the social aspect of switching to PvP, but he also requested technical information, which I had off the top of my head.
I don't think Xanthar was suggesting that you lead two guilds, but rather create ONE PvP guild and connect it to your old PvE guild through the alliance. I don't think this is a good idea, however. If you create a guild, you'll have to learn yourself all the things an already organized team knows. Not only that, but you'll probably suffer defeat after defeat as your PvE friends, forgive me for being clinical, fail along with you.
You also need to consider how much patience you have, also as Xanthar mentioned. When I started playing Guild Wars (before IWAY even came around), a majority of people were at the same part of the learning curve as I was. I didn't even notice getting better, until I looked up and realized myself and all my friends were in top 100 guilds. Your situation will be quite different, however. You have to understand that you will actually be AWARE of the people who are better than you, higher levels of play, and generally you won't be a noob. You'll have to force your way up the PvP learning curve in a community that won't give a ---- anymore. Consider then, whether your ambition is worth what is likely to be an certain amount of time when you're not actually having fun.
These are simply things to consider, as I said. Either way, good luck.

Kumlekar · Feb 26, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

I have to say, I'm in kinda a similar situation, except I already made the swtich to a pvp guild and am extremely unhappy with it. Its not the pvp, its the guild, and I really don't know where to go to find one that is willing to help me rather than insult me. I've quit for a few months, as I often do after i get fed up with all the impossibilities that go along with getting involved in competitive PVP in this game, without a group of friends that already are.

(I know I'll come back to the game eventually, I often quit and come back and quit again. as fursterating as it is sometimes, GW is the best MMO I have ever played)

the_jos · Feb 26, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

@ Fallen,

My 'PvE friends' ain't interested in PvP. And when they are they won't be very serious.
So creating a PvP guild connected to a PvE one won't be a good idea indeed.
I know that I probably won't have fun for a while because of failing a lot.
However, a number of years ago I went to the gym for the first time and the first months I was suffering from muscle pains at the strangest places. But I also noticed that things became easier after a while.
I don't have a problem with starting at the bottom again.

But that's where I get to Kumlekar's response. I've also chatted with a guildie of mine who switched HA for a couple of months and that guildie was very unhappy with that guild. Sure, they get things somewhat done but testosteron was flying all over vent and people were starting arguments about nothing.
That's the kind of situation I'd like to avoid. I don't mind being called names when I do something stupid. If you have experience and know a possible working build I'll play it, no arguments. Just don't expect me to play it perfect the first number of times.
I can handle some very harsh language as long as it's fooling around or when it's because I F***ed up. But I hate people doing it because they can because I'm not standing besides them to put their light out.

I like to compare this to going to the gym.
The first time I was there I didn't have technique, didn't have strength in my arms, legs, chest and back. So there were all those huge guys with enormous muscles and even some ladies that were able to use more weights than me.
But I just kept practicing and in the end achieved what I wanted, that was becoming in a somewhat better shape and fighting of depressions. And in the mean time I became stronger and got a lot better on technique. I still don't have enormous muscles, never did a benchpress over 60kg (free weight). But those were not goals for me back then.

That's also why I asked for some realistic goals for 3 and 6 months.
You can tell me that I should aim for 100kg bench press in 3 months but it's not something I will achieve. I'm not even sure I could make 60kg in 3 months from now (I quit slightly less than a year ago because of health problems). But that would be a more realistic goal because I know the potential is there.

Translated to GW: I don't know how to determine my potential. All I know is that at the moment I have no experience at all. So that's the first thing to work on, gain experience. But besides that it would be nice to know what's possible to achieve.
I'm just standing staring at a lot of dumbells (1-20kg) knowing that I can only lift the lightest 1kg one, but not how much time is realistic to lift the next ones. And when I've trained 3 months, would I be able to lift the 3kg or the 5kg? At 6 months 3kg or 7kg?
I know I won't achieve 20kg for a long while, that's common sence.
It's part about potential, something I don't know yet. But it's also about practice, just lifting weights. And back to guild wars, given regular practice, what would in general be achievable goals for someone in 3 to 6 months?

Xanthar · Feb 26, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Fallen One

I quite understand that Jos was more concerned about the social aspect of switching to PvP, but he also requested technical information, which I had off the top of my head.
I don't think Xanthar was suggesting that you lead two guilds, but rather create ONE PvP guild and connect it to your old PvE guild through the alliance. I don't think this is a good idea, however. If you create a guild, you'll have to learn yourself all the things an already organized team knows. Not only that, but you'll probably suffer defeat after defeat as your PvE friends, forgive me for being clinical, fail along with you.

The Fallen One is spot on. This is why I noted that if one does go the "new guild" route, one should prepare for failure

It's not all bad though - As it happened, this was the option that I chose way back when I was still playing GW. Finding a suitable guild is hard. So hard, in fact, that it might only be marginally harder to start your own - Providing you can stomach being curbstomped by rank 1000+ guilds for months. Still, owning the ban button is pretty much the only way to make sure there is no (in your own opinion) pondscum in the guild. The added bonus is that you can require people to play on times convenient for you at recruitment. Recruitment for PvP, by the way, will be harder than actually getting decent at the game.

Interestingly, the guild leader does not have to be a very strong player him/herself. I was much helped by recruiting people far more skilled than I was at the time.

If getting pwned badly for a long, long time is likely to put you off, then your own guild is truly no option. My only remaining tips would be to:
* Have a thorough interview with the guild leadership where you are applying. Don't hesitate to pull out at the slightest whiff of drama.
* Don't stay in a guild if things get bad. You are in it for the enjoyment, remember?
* Make sure the guild you apply to is actually active. Check their record and make sure it matches their story.
* Make sure that they play on times when you can play. This is really important.
* Play a test match with the team. Do you enjoy the style of play? Can you abide by the tone of communication on vent?
* Are they inflexible when it comes to rank requirements? Just say no.

Apart from this, they'll have to like you as well

As for what goals are realistic... Well, as with most things mental, it's mostly about what kind of effort you are willing to put in, and in what environment you are doing it. If you were to be coached by the best in the game, you'd have a much faster progression than if you were scrubbing it out in a rank 1k guild. Also - How do you measure progress? In the gym you have the wights on the drumbells, but in GW, how do you attain a solid number on your progress? I sure as hell don't know.

The Fallen One · Mar 04, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

I agree, progress is hard to measure in Guild Wars. Additionally, it's harder for me to make a prediction due to the very gradual nature of my GW PvP experience. What I CAN say is that after six months of GvG, you ought to be good enough for at the very least a top 1,000 guild; with the level of dead in this game compared to your level of determination, probably top 500. That's your expectation, though I can't pretend to guarantee it.

Wish Swiftdeath · Mar 04, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Top 500 is not hard...

there are so many gimmicks which require no skill that you can run to easily get top 200